911: Esther Perel | Cheating, Argument, and Conflict

Therapist Esther Perel discusses cheating, conflict, and relationships. Cheaters often want to leave who they've become, not their partner. Is monogamy natural or imposed for control? Arguing for change rather than conflict avoidance. The future of connections with AI. The complexity of cheating in relationships. Therapy, car options, and relationship building. Improving communication and resolving conflicts. Physiological changes in conflict deescalation. Growing up in a culturally diverse household and the power of language. Emotional stability and strategies for dealing with temptation.

Episode metadata

Episode title: 911: Esther Perel | Cheating, Argument, and Conflict
Show: The Jordan Harbinger Show
Owner / Host: Jordan Harbinger
Episode link: open in Snipd
Episode publish date: 2023-10-17

Show notes

Where should we begin examining our problems with relationships, cheating, conflict, and more? Legendary therapist Esther Perel talks us through it here! What We Discuss with Esther Perel:
- People who cheat don't necessarily want to leave their partner they want to leave what they have become, or to get in touch with another part of themselves that they miss.
- Is monogamy a state that mating humans evolved toward naturally, or is it more of a social construct imposed for the sake of control?
- Most of us don't argue because we love conflict, but because we're trying to galvanize some kind of change that requires another person's participation. So how can we argue better for the sake of both parties?
- What we can learn from conflict especially with respect to creating connection.
- As an expert in intimacy and human connection, where does Esther see us heading as a species when we can all have bespoke AI in our pocket that just exists to make us happy?

Episode AI notes

Cheating is often motivated by a desire for personal change and is not necessarily a reflection of the relationship's quality.
Dividing life into separate areas of security and adventure is common, but bringing imagination and playfulness home can strengthen relationships.
Marriage and committed relationships are now moving towards focusing on personal development.
Respecting each other's needs and fostering freedom in a relationship creates a stronger desire to come back home.
Maintaining intensity and energy in relationships requires taking responsibility for one's own actions and treating the partner with equal attention and energy.
Our partner's behaviors can be a reflection of ourselves, and it's important to communicate and take responsibility for our own actions.
Asking for what you want instead of complaining or criticizing can diffuse conflict and contribute to personal growth.
Expressing gratitude instead of apologizing emphasizes the importance of the other person in a relationship.
Recognizing the importance of interdependence and feeling valued can lead to positive changes in behavior.
Understanding the underlying motivations and priorities in fights is crucial for resolving conflicts.
Embracing the danger of life allows for a fuller experience of joy and pleasure.
The prevalence of predictive technologies can increase anxiety by removing uncertainty and unpredictability.

Quick Takeaways

The desire to find someone else in a relationship often stems from a desire to find another version of oneself, rather than wanting to leave the partner.
Exploring individual interests and allowing personal growth can enhance relationships by striking a balance between security and adventure.
Maintaining aliveness, curiosity, and a sense of playfulness in relationships is vital for fostering intimacy and connection.

Deep Dives

Understanding the Desire for Change in Relationships

In this podcast episode, the importance of recognizing that the desire to find someone else is often rooted in the desire to find another self is discussed. When in a relationship, individuals may adopt specific roles and yearn for a different version of themselves. This doesn't necessarily mean they want to leave their partner, but rather they want to leave the person they have become. The podcast explores the multifaceted experience of affairs and highlights that they can occur even in good relationships. It emphasizes the importance of distinguishing between relational issues and individual needs, as well as taking responsibility for personal growth within relationships.

Balancing Freedom and Responsibility in Relationships

The podcast delves into the concept of freedom and responsibility within relationships. It points out that individuals often have fantasies about leading more adventurous lives or experiencing a sense of freedom that may be outside the bounds of their current relationship. The episode suggests that exploring individual interests and allowing space for personal growth can enhance the relationship. It highlights the need for couples to strike a balance between security and adventure, and emphasizes the significance of recognizing and respecting each other's personal boundaries and interests.

Recognizing the Importance of Intimacy and Connection

The episode delves into the topic of intimacy and connection in relationships. It highlights the significance of maintaining aliveness, vibrancy, and curiosity within the relationship. The podcast emphasizes the importance of fostering a sense of playfulness, intensity, and engagement with one another. It urges couples to prioritize creating an environment where both partners feel heard, attended to, and respected. The episode stresses that couples should avoid polarizing and retreating from conflict, instead encouraging open communication, empathy, and appreciation for one another.

Navigating Conflict in Relationships

The podcast explores the dynamics of conflict within relationships and provides insights on fighting better. It advises against resorting to criticism, defensiveness, retaliation, and other destructive patterns during conflicts. The episode encourages couples to focus on expressing their needs and desires rather than engaging in blame or criticism. It emphasizes the importance of active listening, acknowledging each other's perspectives, diffusing conflicts with humor, and protecting the relationship itself. The podcast emphasizes that understanding and addressing the underlying emotions and needs during conflicts can lead to more constructive and meaningful resolutions.

The Impact of AI on Relationships and Human Connection

My guest discusses the rise of AI and its effect on relationships and human connection. She introduces the concept of 'artificial intimacy' and how AI technology simplifies complex relationship issues into binaries. This reliance on predictive technologies can lead to increased anxiety and an inability to deal with uncertainty and unpredictability in real-life relationships. The shift towards AI-driven interactions may result in a decline in social skills and a deeper sense of loneliness despite hyperconnectivity.

Personal Development and the Threat of Hyperconnectivity

We delve into the consequences of hyperconnectivity and the decreasing importance of face-to-face interactions. The guest highlights the impact of technology on personal development and the challenges it poses to relating with others. As technology fulfills our desires for immediate answers and simplified relationships, our ability to navigate nuances and handle the unpredictability of human connections diminishes. The conversation emphasizes the need for recognizing the changes technology brings and its effects on individuals and society.

Snips

[02:52] The Complexity of Cheating and Infidelity in Relationships

🎧 Play snip - 3min️ (02:52 - 05:30)

✨ Summary

People often cheat not because they want to find someone else, but because they want to find another version of themselves. Cheating doesn't necessarily mean the relationship is bad, it's about the individual's desire for change. However, it can still be hurtful and damaging. If someone constantly finds themselves cheating, it's important for them to reflect on their own actions instead of blaming their partner.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 2

People don't necessarily want to leave their partner. They just want to leave what they have become. And they want to get in touch with another part of themselves that they miss. And this, I think, is really profound. And I would like to flesh this out a little bit because I think it might give people the understanding that they might need not to blow up their relationship with cheating or if they're Already cheating, at least they better understand why they're doing it. And they don't go from one affair to another thinking they're going to find something in someone else. There's three questions in this one.

Speaker 1

And I don't necessarily think that cheating is always the best word to even frame. Infidelity, affairs, transgressions, betrayals. It's a very vast experience. The world of cheating. In that experience, I have said that affairs also happen often in good relationships. They're not just symptoms of relationships that have gone completely awry. Then I'm asked how so. And I say, I think one of the most important sentences I heard over 10 years of doing this research was that sometimes a person goes looking elsewhere, not because they want to find someone Else, but because they want to find another self. When we are in a relationship, we enter a role. We become the father, the mother, the provider, the subjugated, the responsible, whichever the end. There is something about that transgression that often says, it's not that I want to leave you. I wanted to leave what I have become. That doesn't justify it. That doesn't give it permission. That just explains that sometimes it's not about the relationship, but it's about the individual and it's not against you, but it is for me. And that said, that for me can be very hurtful still. If people find themselves in a recidivist positions where it's basically one after the other, then you often know that it is not about a relationship. If any time a person says, look, this has happened to me every time I end up with somebody else, I check out, I disappear, I lose my sexual interest. Then you know that you say to the person, you need to check what's happening to you and don't make this a story about your partner, who may think if I was more of this or more of that, then This wouldn't happen. So it's very important. What is relational and what is individual and where do you start to make sense of this complicated and often very painful experience?

[06:26] Division of Life: Security vs Adventure, Responsibility vs Playfulness, Love vs Sex

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (06:26 - 07:05)

✨ Summary

People often divide their lives into separate areas, with security in one and adventure in another. They imagine exciting adventures, but rarely bring that imagination home. They long for freedom and lack of responsibility, seeking boundaries elsewhere.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

And what we often do is it becomes security here and adventure there. Responsibility here, playfulness there, love here, sex there. And that is often the way people divide it. They're filled with imagination about the adventures they would have. And sometimes you kind of want to say, do you ever bring any of that imagination home? You would feel that home can be quite fun as well. But you kind of bring a part of you home and this relates to the question you asked me before. And then you bring the other parts elsewhere. The fact that people long for freedom or lack of responsibility or kind of no boundaries for a moment.

[09:27] The Evolution of Marriage and Personal Development

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (09:27 - 10:39)

✨ Summary

Marriage or committed relationships have not traditionally focused on personal development, but that is changing. Some couples live closely intertwined lives, while others maintain a strong core while pursuing personal interests. There is no one model for a successful relationship.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

So it's a fascinating thing that you're asking me because marriage or committed relationships of any sort, hetero or same sex, never had at its core personal development. You know, that's not why people made families or married. This in itself has to be seen as a very recent thing. You know, they say, the marriage for self development, the one that's going to help me become the best version of myself, beyond security, stability, family, children, etc. Now we also have, you know, climbing Mount Olympus from which you have a fantastic view. And those of us who climb do get that view, but not everybody gets to climb. So some couples live very much as overlapping than diagrams. We do everything together. We go to sleep together. We wake up together. You know, we see the same movies, etc. Some couples live much more in a differentiated fashion. We have a strong core. We share a few things that are really important to both of us. And we have a rather large zone of that is personal, be professional, social, spiritual, any artistic, you know, other interests. There's not one model.

[11:29] Balance in Relationships and Respect for Individuality

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (11:29 - 12:34)

✨ Summary

Do people give each other permission to go out and have a great time? It's about respecting each other's needs and fostering freedom. It's not about sex, but rather doing things we love alone. When we encourage each other to enjoy ourselves, we create a stronger desire to come back home to a place that respects our individuality and freedom.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 1

It's like, do people give each other permission to keep people respect each other's needs? Do they say when one goes, be it for the night? And I'm not talking sex. I'm talking, just go out with a friend. Do they say have a great time? Or do they say, again, you have to go out? If I say have a great time, then I breed freedom in the midst of security. I say to you, go do that thing that you love to do that is not interesting to me or that I'm not a part of or that you prefer to do alone because it's not the same when we go together and when you Go see your body on your own. And when I say that, when I say have a fantastic time, you have a much more stronger inclination to want to come home because we want to come back to the places that respect our freedom or Our needs or our individuality and vice versa versus the ones that make us feel that every time we do something for ourselves, we're taking something away from someone else, provided That the other pieces that are in the realm of responsibility are attended to.

[16:03] The Importance of Maintaining Intensity and Energy in Relationships

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (16:03 - 17:54)

✨ Summary

Don't fall into the fundamental attribution error. Instead of blaming your partner for lack of interest, take responsibility for your own actions. Keep the spark alive by showing curiosity, interest, and playfulness. Don't ignore your partner while glued to a screen. Treat your partner with the same attention and energy as you do with your clients or best friends. Couples with an erotic spark make deliberate efforts and create a different energy in the relationship.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand

Speaker 1

You know, it's so easy to always think it's the other person who lacks, who's a boring, who doesn't do anything, who is not inspiring, et cetera. And to think that we are, we call it fundamental attribution error. If we are not available, then we just say it's because I was really busy and I just didn't have much time to pay attention. But if our partner doesn't pay attention, then it's because they don't have the right energy and they're not in the swing of things and they're characterological and ours is circumstantial. It's very easy to do this. So when you have butterflies for someone else, you just say first and foremost, wow, it's a nice thing that I can still feel this. I haven't felt this in a long time. Now, how come? Where have I been or where have we been? What are we doing to maintain a little bit of intensity or energy or erotic spark between the two of us? And I'm not talking sexual spark. I'm talking about aliveness, vibrancy, vitality, playfulness, curiosity. Do I have the same kind of curiosity? And I come home with a question to my partner of something that I want to know about them. I show interest or do I sit on the couch and I do this with my phone while I'm watching TV and I make them feel that whatever they tell me, it's not worth it for me to even lift my head. This is what's going on in a lot of people's homes. You spend the day at your screen, you come home, you take more time at another screen, with your phone in hand while you're sitting next to somebody and you're surprised that there is Nothing happening and no energy and no butterflies. If people treat their partner like they treat their clients or their best friends or these people that they suddenly are meeting, there would be a different energy in the house. It's not just that it leaves because of time and couples who have an erotic spark, they are deliberate, they're attentive, they make an effort, they create it.

[19:20] How Our Partner's Behaviors Reflect Upon Ourselves

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (19:20 - 20:23)

✨ Summary

Our partner's behaviors are often a reflection of ourselves. Relationships are like a figure eight, with one person reinforcing the behavior in the other. Instead of staying quiet until we explode, we should communicate and take responsibility for our own actions. It's important to ask ourselves how we can contribute to making the relationship better.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand

Speaker 1

I think essentially, a lot of times, our partner's behaviors are a reflection of ourselves. It's not a reflection. It's not a reflection. You're involved in it. It's like relationships are a figure eight. I ask you, you don't answer. So now I ask you louder, but now you don't answer again. So then I ask you now, it's like one person is reinforcing the very behavior in the other that they actually don't want. If you want the other person to stop talking, then say something. But if you're going to keep quiet until you explode, for example, I mean, I'm just thinking about the couples I've seen yesterday and today. Sure, yeah. But you know, the point is, much of couples life, when things begin to go a little bit awry, is often putting the responsibility on the other person without paying attention enough to What can I do to make this better? Or in what way am I contributing to my partner feeling the way they do? If I really care, that should be a normal question rather than stop, you know, busting my chops.

[23:56] Why asking is better than complaining in relationships and how to diffuse conflict

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (23:56 - 26:18)

✨ Summary

In a conflict, instead of criticizing or complaining, it's important to ask for what you want. Conflict is essential for personal growth and learning to deal with differences. We are becoming conflict avoidant due to virtualization, but it's crucial to have face-to-face conversations to understand the impact of our words and actions. Embracing conflict is vital for societal and relational development.

📚 Transcript

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Speaker 2

And I've heard you say and maybe even on this show, but certainly elsewhere, ask, don't complain when it comes to your partner.

Speaker 1

Tell me more about that. So two questions, right? Why am I interested in conflict? And then how can people diffuse conflict? It's complaint or criticize, right? I mean, John Gottman often says, you know, that behind a criticism, there is a veiled wish. When I say you don't do something, there is actually something that I want. Now, I can continue and talk about how you don't do and you don't pick up and you don't clean and you don't attend and you don't. Or I can say it really matters to me that. But if I put myself out there and I say what I want, what I need, what I care about and you don't respond, then I have to deal with the rejection. If I go at you and I criticize you, I experience myself as less valuable. This is the notion about ask for what you want rather than criticize or complain for the thing you don't get. It's okay to have wishes. Make them public. That's first. Now, why conflict? Because I think that we're becoming a conflict avoidant society. We are basically experiencing and watching around this massive social atrophy virtualizing our lives, basically spending entire days at home. You don't have to go out to work to exercise, to eat, to see movies, nothing. So where are you going to deal with the friction and the close proximity with other people where you learn to deal with difference and disagreements? And so we polarize. We avoid conflict and we polarize. And that's the context in which I said, I need a good one hour, very deliberate, specific, not generic, talk about argument, fighting, difference, disagreement, conflict. The stuff that exists in every relationship and that people are more and more avoiding. People these day tell you, I talk to this person every day, but it's all on text. They never actually see the person. They never see the effect of what they're doing or saying on the face of the other person. I'm talking to you now and I'm watching every response of yours to what I say. I'm not just talking to the in the wind kind of thing. So this conflicting is becoming extremely important on a societal level and on a relational level, romantic friends work all of it.

[35:19] "Don't Apologize, Say Thank You" The Importance of Gratitude in Relationships

🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (35:19 - 36:35)

✨ Summary

One of the best pieces of advice is to not apologize when coming home late because it implies that whatever was done was more important than the person waiting. Instead, express gratitude for their presence. Being at home and feeling unimportant, the speaker realizes their value and contribution to a meeting. This newfound awareness changes the power dynamic and their sense of being used and unappreciated. It becomes a defense against consciousness. The speaker believes this realization is one of the most important and practical takeaways, urging listeners to rewind and listen again to grasp its significance.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand

Speaker 1

You know, it's one of the best pieces of advice I ever came up with. But I didn't know it. It's people who told it to me afterwards. It was a situation where a person comes home late and they basically apologize and they think they're being nice because they apologize for whatever missed the game, missed the dinner, Didn't show up, etc. And I said, don't apologize. Because if you apologize, what you're really saying is whatever I did was more important than you. So you're still all important, sold brand use. But if you come home and you say, thank you, I couldn't have stayed without you. Then I'm here at home thinking I'm part of something and not a mashed potatoes. And there is the delicious food somewhere else. The other meeting that is more important than me, I've become a part of it. And we are interdependent. And I know that you rely on me and you acknowledge that, yes, you could not have stayed another two hours if I hadn't been manning the fort here. It changes the entire power dynamic. It changes the independence. It changes the feeling used and not appreciated. All of it. It actually is one of the most important defenders against consciousness.

Speaker 2

Yeah, that is brilliant. I mean, when I say people hit that back 15 or 30 seconds button on your podcast player and listen to that again, I think that might be one of the most important and easily most practical Things that people can use as a result of this. Because I know you're not a person where I can say, give me three top tips for not pissing off your spouse.

[38:24] The Hidden Agendas in Fights

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (38:24 - 39:02)

✨ Summary

People fight about specific issues, but behind it all, they are usually fighting for power, control, care, trust, respect, and recognition. It's important to understand the underlying motivations and priorities in order to resolve conflicts.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand

Speaker 1

What's going on is this. There is what people fight about and then there is what people fight for. So you fight about the swimming lesson, but what you fight for is power and control. That's the hidden agendas of most fights. Is it an issue of power and control? Whose decision matters morse who has priority? Is it about care and closeness? Can I trust you? Do you have my back? Can I rely on you and respect and recognition? Do you value me? Do I matter? So sometimes in this instance, with the you're in the car, I say, okay, cancel. What is this for you? What are you fighting for? What's underneath?

[51:40] The Key Word: Enjoy

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (51:40 - 52:22)

✨ Summary

When you're in survival mode, you're too vigilant to enjoy life's pleasures. But embracing the danger of life allows you to experience joy and pleasure to the fullest. Be present and live life to its fullest!

📚 Transcript

Click to expand

Speaker 1

The key word is the enjoy. When you are in survival mode, when you are vigilant, when you see danger everywhere, when you don't take off the plastic, you don't allow for joy and pleasure. That's the piece. It's like, because when you are experiencing joy or enjoyment or pleasure, you're not vigilant. You can't be anxious and experience pleasure at the same time. Whereas when you are in the side that embraces the danger of life as a fact of life, but you are in the erotic experience of it, you're going to live life at its fullest, then you experience Pleasure. You can't be watchful and experience pleasure at the same time. And so that's the essence of the word.

[01:06:47] The Impact of Predictive Technologies on Anxiety

🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (01:06:47 - 01:07:37)

✨ Summary

Predictive technologies simplify problems and provide clear, immediate answers, leaving no doubt. However, their ubiquity in everyday life is leading to increased anxiety, as people struggle to deal with uncertainty and unpredictability. Contrary to expectations, these technologies are not making us more confident, but rather more anxious.

📚 Transcript

Click to expand

Speaker 1

Technology operates on everything is a yes or no, we simplify the problem to the point where we can have a clear answer. And that clear answer leaves you without a single doubt. You have Netflix, you have ways, you have Spotify, you have, you know, if you single, you have your dating app. I mean, so you have what to watch, where to go, what to wear, what to eat. You are surrounded with predictive technologies that are meant to give you an immediate answer without a single doubt and that are producing people that are more and more anxious because They can't deal with uncertainty, without with the unpredictabilities of life. You would think that all these predictive technologies will make us more confident, but in fact, they are making us more and more anxious.